Self medication is prevalent. We live in a MCOL city in the southeast. Associates at white shoe law firms are good at a lot of things, but they are especially great at complaining (eloquently and often). I asked a group of former BigLaw associates some of their thoughts on law firm life, including what they wished they had known as a first year, their advice for associates leaving BigLaw, what they miss most, and tips on maximizing the BigLaw experience. If you do have loans I strongly urge you to refinance and keep the big expenses (rent and transportation) as low as possible. She's 33 and was making 205k and quit for a 90k state job, with hopes of eventually getting a general counsel position in-house. IAMA BIGLAW first-year associate, AMA. A family friend will be graduating from law school this spring and starting his career at a large law firm next fall. I am an incoming first-year associate in a big market. I get 4-5 hours on those nights. Posted by 1 day ago. I was able to land a Big Law job close to my parents so I moved back in with them. To connect your comment with another above about regional differences, I'll note that 2400 is very high for many markets outside of NYC. I don't mind being in a VHCOL area (San Francisco) since I'd choose to live here anyway. The list goes on. While many are structured as partnerships, make no mistake, Biglaw is big business. Unfortunately, the environment in which I was raised did not provide me with a ton of connections. As others have said, the most brutal schedules are in NYC, and neither of my positions were in NYC. Some people drink expensive liquor (substance abuse is big in law), some people eat out at expensive restaurants, some people buy clothes/cars/toys. Posted by just now. Apple could sue both opencore.computer for Eula issues, and opencore for making the Eula issues possible, Apple would win that case causing us all the switch back to Clover as it would become illegal for the devs to provide updates to opencore. Corporate lawyers will definitely have a tougher time. Rising. Is this structured lifestyle possible to maintain in biglaw? Is anyone concerned that a law suit from Apple for opencore.computer may also kill opencore in the process. People have tried. Big and medium law have an image to maintain. Log In Sign Up. Our firm gives unlimited billable credit for pro bono work, so I have had some great opportunities outside of my commercial practice. I generally am able to get 7-8 hours of sleep a night, unless it's the week or so before a major closing. but they allow for mega backdoor Roth and provide both HSA and limited FSA, as well as some other incidental benefits like fitness reimbursement and pre-tax commuter spending. Are the hours worth the money? Thanks for the insight! Press J to jump to the feed. Your burn rate on convenience items will be higher. Log in from home at 8-8:30pm. That counts for a lot. We had our start date pushed back to January of this year, and there … Press J to jump to the feed. For current and former Law School Redditors. There will also be times where you work well past midnight every day and sleep deprivation becomes a real issue. Fellow midlevel Big Law associate here as well (long time lurker but created an account to join the community). New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the financialindependence community, Continue browsing in r/financialindependence. Glad I'm not in capital markets or restructuring because they're getting crushed. I was only there a few years (VHCOL). My wife is, or I guess was, just quite. The largest of these law firms generate billions of dollars of revenues and reward their partners with millions of dollars in compensation. Hi! I'm curious about other firm's financial benefits - what are ya'll 401k, insurance, etc. 11. share. No way around it. Hot New Top. Biglaw has no official definition but loosely refers to the nation’s largest law firms by headcount, smaller firms that pay at the market rate or medium-sized firms with international reach. Hoping to not have to work for money ever again after my 8th year. I've noticed that, despite our very high income (and high student loans), there are actually very few biglaw associates here. Other big law firms followed suit so that most now meet that pay while the rest follow pretty tightly under that figure. I've always been a structured person and stick to a tight schedule in school and its brought me much success. A lot of the suck from Biglaw is that you will work until 11:30 p.m. on those days, take an Uber home and go straight to bed, and then after a week of that, you work all weekend too. Litigators will not sleep a lot during trials or if your schedule is jammed with depositions or other time-intensive tasks. I have walked multiple colleagues through our firm’s benefit offerings because they are clueless or intimidated about how it all works. The first is that BigLaw associates work in a high-stakes, exciting world where their decisions have multimillion-dollar consequences for their corporate clients. At both, the office was pretty much empty by 7pm. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Relax for an hour or two before bed. I have very little to no stress, spend time with my husband and 2 little kids, I go to the gym at lunch, take off for long weekends and vacation several times a year. The Do's and Dont's of Being a Summer Associate. Also max out all of your tax advantaged accounts - chances are you’ll be in a lower tax bracket in retirement. The Justice Association of Law, Rightness and Goodness is a pedohunting server where we deal with cases and only 18+ people can join because we need decoys … Knowing that I would have a nest egg if things turned upside down makes the job much less stressful, and I actually think I am a better lawyer as a result. There are exceptions, but if you can overcome your crippling anxiety and actually fall asleep quickly, you will have enough time for a solid 7-8 hours of sleep most nights. If you want to sleep from midnight to 7, you will be able to do that most days. IMO, law tends to value and attract people who care about status. Edit: another thing I can think of: a lot of biglaw associates seem to "self medicate" with expensive stuff because of their stress. With litigation, if you have constant fire drills, the cause is much more likely to be either that something went wrong and work needs to be redone, or that the partner/senior associate isn't properly managing the case. Comparing your description of ~2400 hour billing expectations (which seems pretty common for NYC) against those lower figures quantifies the NYC vs. non-NYC workload that everyone always refers to. card. Not exclusive to biglaw, but sometimes there's just a lot of overlapping deadlines and not enough people to handle them. I'm a litigator in NYC. But I bet I know a lot more than most law students … Press J to jump to the feed. The trendy thing right now seems to be to not segregate x months of expenses for emergencies, but I personally don't know if I can stomach that, given our industry. card classic compact. Keep in mind my goal was just to meet the billable requirement. When you're getting crushed, 7-8 hours per night is impossible. My husband is from there but loathes traffic. Where are you at in your path to FIRE? My schedule isn't exactly structured, but I've been able to carve out time for working out, food, spending time with friends/family, etc. Other times I trade sleep to play video games or read after working late. Don’t buy into that bullshit. Cookies help us deliver our Services. My choice. Many top law school graduates refuse to recognize that their credentials do not automatically equate to financial success, and start living like they are partners from Day 1. Esq. I'm former medium/big law and it sucked. Doesn't it vary by law firm? How to Talk to a Lawyer on the Phone: Advice for Rising 2Ls Trying to Land a Summer Associate Offer. Lol yes...Biglaw is not as abusive as most people make it out to be. Glad to hear she's made it out. Close. Right now, I'm just cruising along, maxing out all the tax-advantaged accounts and saving up to buy a place of my own. Work until 10-11pm. Generally yes. 100% agree. Partner may be more realistic in this offices too. People who care about this spend a lot of money on this. I had plenty of weekends with nothing that had to be done. Close. 40. share. Eat dinner. Our billable requirements are manageable and we enjoy our work. Hot. I feel like I see a lot of people at my firm just snap and take the first thing that presents itself? What do large law firm associates do all day, anyway? Reddit gives you the best of the internet in one place. Financial Independence is closely related to the concept of Early Retirement/Retiring Early (RE) - quitting your job/career and pursuing other activities with your time. Yesterday she was stressing about an $8000 tax bill she and her husband (also a lawyer) owe. Lose the addiction to comparing yourself to others once you leave law school. Front loaded income - most associates reach the peak of their earning power within 2-4 years after law school. I've talked to other juniors and they seem to be too lazy/strangely resistant to saving money. Wow, those are like 1980s banker's hours! Leave work at 7pm. Your question depends heavily on the practice, on the matter, and the supervisor. I tend to want to do some things other than work, so that doesn't usually work out for me if I work late, but even then, I sleep a reasonable amount. I was there to fill quotas, I'm sure. 2019 was a good year to graduate from a top school if you aspired to work in Big Law. I remember when I first started at the firm, we had a junior partner talk to us, and he said that realistically, even when things are busy, you should be able to get home and get a reasonable amount of sleep, and that's pretty much true. But is working in BigLaw all it’s cracked up to be? Weekends were variable. One way this manifests is in major lifestyle creep. The Biglaw salary scale moves around from time-to-time. 8. I think that many would consider even what you are describing abusive. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Your practice group has a big impact on your schedule. It varies, in my experience (AmLaw 100, litigation). I'll stay for at least a few more years until I burnout myself or get fired. Sometimes I work late, sometimes I don't. And if so, is it as cool as it sounds or does it actually suck because you’re somewhere interesting but have to work? And of course, if a case comes up or something urgent happens, you will have to prioritize those and they might eat into your sleeping hours. 17 ways to stay out of trouble. User account menu. Archived. DISCUSSION. We are not interested. First, if you’re not familiar with legal compensation at the nation’s largest law firms (“Biglaw”), it’s amazingly transparent. Each fall, Adams and Reese hires a select group of second-year law students to join our Summer Associate Program, giving them challenging work, client interaction and real-world m Press J to jump to the feed. Those who just finished their SA positions are more or less forced to stick with them because of how slow 3L OCI has been (and will likely continue to be). They'll phrase it as "oh, everyone had to do it because of COVID." High degree of burnout. I aggressively paid debt off for the first couple years and am now stashing away at least 50% of what hits my bank account each month (i.e., post-401(k) and HSA deductions). At its core, FI/RE is about maximizing your savings rate (through less spending and/or higher income) to achieve FI and have the freedom to RE as fast as possible. Other professions have pretty high burnout too, but law seems to be up there with medicine as far as burning out people. You are broker than broke when you start, so just keep your head down and focus on the goal. It's only in crunch time is that an issue. But I came from a midsize boutique firm (still major corporate clients, same billables) that fulfilled *every* negative biglaw stereotype and more, and I can confidently say this is NOT that. It will take us longer to fire this way, but we aren’t miserable while working toward our goal. Budgets that keep growing: vacation, Uber, alcohol, delivery food. This is NOT a forum for legal advice. Find communities you're interested in, and become part of an online community! Now that I think about it, it’s super easy to milk a lot of big law stuff for FREE. Biglaw lawyers on . 38. Thanks! Big Law associate careers tend to be brutally short. I did drive a benz back then but no regrets, and I'm much more practical now (I'm 41 now). Law Schools. Lawyers should do that more often. You can spend those with people, recreating, or sleeping. Lunch can basically be free all summer while summer associates are in town (I know I . It all starts with making the call. Candidly, my husband and I outsource a lot, but we do so in a very targeted way. Associates in the NY office are not expected to go to the office immediately, but are expected to work from a quiet location from at least 8:45 am to 7:00 pm during orientation. But yes, she went from about 160k to 205k in the 4th to 6th year, but has been steady since. At the most intense jobs, there were be a few discretionary hours a day most days. Commentary 'Big Law Killed My Husband': An Open Letter From a Sidley Partner's Widow The wife of Sidley Austin partner Gabe MacConaill shares her story. I think biglaw is great for FIRE as long as you don't have huge loans and the "prestige" doesn't become part of your identity. I knew I hated biglaw 3 months in so in retrospect I'm glad I didn't learn about FIRE as a junior associate - I might have quit a lot earlier. Not a big law associate, but the answers are probably going to be that you make time for what’s important to you—whether than be family, fun, or sleep. I worked a ton of hours but even when I left work, my mind was never completely off of work, even when I was on vacation. The employee attorneys at Biglaw are largely made up of associates, and these positions are highly coveted by law school students. The biggest gripe I hear relates to the billable requirements. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. There are certainly circumstances where something needs to be done on an unreasonable timetable, so it requires actual all-nighters or the like. Above The Law In your inbox. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. I'm a mid-level associate working in international arbitration. With Corporate, it seems that you're much more likely to have a constant stream of stuff that needs to get done ASAP, which leads to partners expecting constant availability. For a non NYC perspective, I worked for 2 V100 firms in different markets before going in-house. 10. Do you spend a lot of time abroad on cases? It’s also a time to reflect on our relationship with work. What Not To Do As A Summer Associate . Traditionally, large law firms had two tiers of lawyers: partners and associates. I had a few that were like a normal weekday. I have heard that Cravath forces it associates to work brutally long hours, often leading to burnout after just a few years, whereas some big law firm in places like California encourage a reasonable work/life balance. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. This is a reasonable response. Labor Day marks the end of summer. Close. My firm doesn't match any contributions (which I think is standard?) Big law firms, or firms that employ at least 50 lawyers (and may employ hundreds or even thousands of lawyers), tend to be particular about which lawyers they hire. For me, the vast majority of the time, I could sleep 8 hours if I wanted to. For many law students, a job in a large law firm (“BigLaw”) is the holy grail, the dream job, the “how you’ll know you’ve arrived” experience. Report Save. I chose a lower ranked school for the scholarship instead of a higher ranked school and graduated with no debt. I probably average 6-7 hours/night. Disclaimer: I've only been in "biglaw" for ~2 months. Of course, there are fire drills and 10:30 pm emails that cannot wait until tomorrow morning but that is not an everyday thing. Eventually realized it wasn't worth it. 7th year associate here, in mediumlaw (350 attorneys). The Justice Association of Law, Rightness and Goodness is a pedohunting server where we deal with cases and only 18+ people can join because we need decoys and the age of consent plays a big roll . Not Atlanta. I think it's helpful to think about the math. Does anyone know if that is correct, or am I off base here, respectfully to all posters? Some of the largest offices might have 1,000+ lawyers. Married to another mediumlawyer (250 at his firm). Most weekends I probably billed 3-4 hours a day (meaning I worked 4-5 hours). Some of the unique challenges I've noticed: Geographic- Most jobs for junior lawyers (that stand any chance of servicing our loans) are in VHCOL /high tax locations. It's actually kind of frustrating. I am a third year associate at a big firm. 38. I was hoping we could share experiences and commiserate. The latest shift in the industry occurred in the middle of 2016. The hours, the lack of communication among "teammates", the poor time management of superiors, the fire drills, the disrespect, the harassment, the opacity of the promotion process. Most Biglaw firms are located in the major U.S. cities. Can I ask how long you were in Biglaw for? Hot New Top Rising. In that regard, some big law leaders will find false comfort in their 2015 Am Law Midlevel Associates Survey ranking. (80/20 equity/bonds?). Ask questions, seek advice, post outlines, etc. I've found it's easier if I treat weekdays as being reserved almost exclusively for work (quarantine and not having kids helps, ngl). And those salaries at big law are sweeter than ever. Or is structure impossible and schedules erratic? Check out their thoughts below. If they're not, I'd probably start looking elsewhere sooner rather than later. Join. I personally think that a more conservative asset allocation is required for us in the accumulation phase. Junior Big Law associate checking in! No way to get around that. I'm making more money now than a partner at that old firm, if my sources are correct, and I work roughly 9/930 to 330/4pm. There's no billable requirement here, and you won't get a talking to unless you're under ~1800. The frontloaded earnings is a plus since you can start investing a ton right away. I know BigLaw works you hard. Good thing is we buckled down over the last year and knocked out the student loans. That’s the gist I’ve gotten when I’ve asked biglaw people about time management. Consider the outcomes of associates who joined 156 major law firms since 2010:* 44% left their firms before their 3rd year mark; 67% left their firms before their 5th year mark; 78% left their firms before their 7th year mark % of associates since 2010 who left their firms before their 3rd, 5th and 7th year anniversaries. My typical day: Get to the office by 9:30-10:00am, work with a 15-30 minute break to grab something to bring back to the desk for lunch. I came from a midsize boutique firm (still major corporate clients, same billables) that fulfilled every negative biglaw stereotype and more, and I can confidently say this is NOT that. Job instability - firms love to have huge layoffs (and cut deep) in recessions, when your portfolio is at its worst. This is a reasonable response. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Same here. I get to the office 8:30-9:00 and leave 6:30-7:00...generally make it to the gym 8:30-9:30 and read for an hour before bed. That generally means no weekend trips away from your laptop/cell service, emailing "Will do, thanks" while on dates, very risky getting drunk enough that you can't work, etc. Even lawyers don’t always read the fine print. Is it possible to get 7-8 hours a night of sleep? User account menu. Hi guys, I'm a first-year associate in biglaw in a mid-sized city in biz lit. Being A Summer Associate Is The Best Job You’ll Have In The Legal Industry It's basically like sleepaway camp, but you get paid insanely well and the food is a lot better. Happy to share prior experience, too. There is often very little warning between when your workload changes from somewhat busy to all-consuming. The hours vary depending on the number of cases and new cases that we get. I’ve been wondering if that’s a practice area I would enjoy. DM me if interested. The money is great, the work is interesting, and exit opportunities are good. It was worth every penny. Most days you can get 8 hours of sleep. Some groups have a lot of variance day to day while others are pretty steady and even. The work wasn't stressful, it was thinking about billable hours and meeting them and exceeding them to get my bonus and to keep my job. Just this afternoon a lawyer friend of mine mentioned she spent $1000 on Botox this morning. Are there any other biglaw associates here? And then if you’re billing a lot, you can snag yourself the free dinners too. I have a small yet successful network in my country of origin, but as a first-generation student that went to a mediocre college, my network within the United States is not as noteworthy, Hence, I come to you, Reddit. Lawyer, but not biglaw here with a few scattered thoughts. Posted by 9 days ago. I kept a later schedule because I am not a morning person, and the later schedule made me more productive. We get to see our kid. If you have big closings/multiple closings on the horizon you'll have late nights and early mornings. IAMA BIGLAW first-year associate, AMA. Asked to provide some advice, I started compiling tips and recommendations — things to do and not to do. This is in tension with fire. Subscribe and get breaking news, commentary, and opinions on law firms, lawyers, law schools, lawsuits, judges, and more. It's definitely not for a lot of people though. Biglaw requires extraordinary energy. I've been very lucky with my FIRE progress so far. Albeit if you consistently bill low then by the time you get real responsibility as a midlevel you likely won't know what's going on as well as you should. Firms have tried to coax me and my husband to move back to Atlanta and take $100k raises each, multiple times. Way to go. I'm only a first year with a very modest amount of money saved up (what JL Collins would call F.U. I was able to land a Big Law job close to my parents so I moved back in with them. On a normal day I will probably work from 9am - 7pm. Report Save. I've also taken the sage advice of building an emergency fund that's housed at Ally. I went into a field of law that was a spinoff of my original practice (tax, went into estate planning/tax planning) and it's been great. We make very good money for our city. I had colleagues that were the opposite, and their schedule was essentially the same as mine, except shifted up by 3 hours (yes, that meant leaving the office at 4, and logging back on around 6, usually to pick up kids from daycare). Some Texas firms have minimums as low as 1800 for Cravath bonuses. Otherwise normal schedules are totally manageable. Saving and using all the medium/big law money in my early years really set me up nicely so I could coast eventually (mid 30s.). I agree with everything you said. The u/SortedControversy community on Reddit. More likely to pay for dry cleaning. Corporate/transactional people will not sleep when there are last minute deals that need to get done, say, over a holiday weekend. But those circumstances should be both uncommon and temporary. 1. If there is an upcoming deadline and the project management is poor, we may have to stay late until past midnight or even as late as 4am on a few occasions before. Was it a very deliberate transition for her, or did she basically have a bad day and then say "screw it"? Student loans do come into play to some degree. I'm former biglaw, now FI. I took a roughly 50% paycut when I left to a small firm but I didn't have billable hours anymore and I worked from 9-4, and never took work home. I actually became much more frugal when i started because I realized how painful /uncertain it was to earn each dollar in this profession. So, on average, that's billing five 9 hour days and a few hours on the weekend. More likely to pay for food delivery. So on a good day I can still get my 7 hours of sleep but on a bad day it could be as little as 3-4. I very very frequently seeing students/applicants on here conflating firm size with amount of work/stress. I would, for example. In reflecting on my days in BigLaw, I wondered if others felt the same. As a young female, I knew right away I wasn't ever going to make partner. My only addition is that the challenge for corporate attorneys is that specialist work is often dependent on corporate templates or precedent or instructions so it feels like there are always gating items that slow down the team if you do not address ASAP. And that bourbon habit is spendy. That’s the gist I’ve gotten when I’ve asked biglaw people about time management. I know a large number of very high functioning alcoholics. Yes, there are recessions and job stability is a huge issue. Do you keep an emergency fund in cash, or is it all in the VTSAX? like? Mid-level corporate associate here and this is spot on. You would think that leads to better planning for that inevitability, but it often doesn't. I chose a lower ranked school for the scholarship instead of a higher ranked school and graduated with no debt. I took it for what it was. money), but there have been days when I've fantasized about walking out the door and never coming back. The result being *everyone* works late to meet the deadlines, partners included (again, in my experience). Not a big law associate, but the answers are probably going to be that you make time for what’s important to you—whether than be family, fun, or sleep. Would you agree that going to a smaller firm doesn't necessarily mean less work than BigLaw (generally speaking)? When you are a first-year associate in a big law firm the way is fraught with booby-traps. First-year Associate getting like no work. All equities, above 50% SR. I’ve game-ified the process a bit, and have to remind myself to spend X% of a bonus for fun. I don't pretend to know a ton about BIGLAW, being just a first-year. My best advice is to not just go to law school to make money, do it if you truly want to be an attorney. So it's interesting to see you comparing your BigLaw experience favorably against a midsize boutique. Tons of CLEs also where you can get free lunch. Of course, there is a cost to the associates. Fellow midlevel Biglaw associate here, also on the FIRE track. 3L 8 months ago. While you may have better odds of landing your first biglaw job in ny, you can make good biglaw salaries in second-tier cities like atlanta or Dallas. Can you talk a little bit about how you chose trusts/estates? This is complicated by the fact that for most, your time in biglaw has an expiration date. Not only do we work with students nationwide, we also partner with firms, including Am Law firms, and law schools, including top 10 law schools, to provide premier bar exam prepar level 2. We all knew we had a shelf life. Is it possible to get 7-8 hours a night of sleep? There are at least two contradictory stereotypes about associate life in large, national law firms (hereinafter “BigLaw”). Reddit is a network of communities based on people's interests. And for good reason: there's plenty to complain about! Log In Sign Up. I've been very lucky with my FIRE progress so far. 8. r/ biglaw. (I think the corporate side is less predictable in general.). DC and Texas, for example, both seem to hover more around 2000, maybe 2300 MAX if things are unusually busy. I'm also in tax, although I'm thinking about transitioning out to something else. Posted by 8 years ago. First up is Cooley, which according to sources recently decided to cut its 10-week summer associate program back by four weeks. etc. All associates are paid along a standard Biglaw salary scale based on seniority. If you are billing 2400 hours for the year (which is respectable anywhere that's not Wachtell and above and beyond most places), that works out to 50 hours for 48 weeks. level 2. This is a place for people who are or want to become Financially Independent (FI), which means not having to work for money.
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